Beta NTW3

[[N]Fullin]

Interesting , thou I think a line must be drawn somewhere into historical accuracy.
Lets say that as this game is company level 123 men per unit guns should reflect the exact amout of pieces and men as well, as scaled art vs real infantry will be unfair as well.

On the same line light infantry were the same size as line in most cases.What I mean is that same historically accurate data is not always viable.

Artillery shouldnt be the same for every nation , you are absolutley right, but maybe you could work something throu the stats to reflect these differences acordingly to historical data, instead of varying the amount of guns or crew.

Because probably an 8 piece spanish battery was cheaper than a 5 piece brtitish one , just because bronze was more available in the peninsula, french would say that their guns should be cheaper as they had more loot from the prussian army, and some may say that a battle is fought in 1814 so the french have no guns at all. And arguments will be endless.

A standard should be agreed that suits the game balance, so if you can compile all historical data and come out witha neat piece of artillery stats that represent closer the historical accuracy Iam sure the Lordz will be more prone to use it. And althought it may sound like a compromise , it will be a step fodward in the historical direction.

Can you do that ?

[[N]Von Clausewitz]

Good feedback both of you (Avon and fullin).

Maybe to get away from the confusion we should a certain year for the armies in NTW3.
For example 1805 or 1809 and scale everything to that year.
But of course all depends on what the lord think is feasible.

VC

[[N]Byron]

Artillery shouldnt be the same for every nation , you are absolutley right, but maybe you could work something throu the stats to reflect these differences acordingly to historical data, instead of varying the amount of guns or crew.

I strongly agree. The happenstance of historical battery organization strikes me as less significant than other variables. Reduced or altered numbers of guns in a "unit" could also cause unexpected problems in light of the 20 unit army ceiling.

[[N]Avon Ulysses]

Interesting points.
Von Clausewitz: organisation & uniforms did change a lot over the 20 or so years of the revolutionary/Napoleonic wars. Looking at the uniforms in our game they seem set towards the later end of the period. If we were going to pick a specific time I think the 1809-1812 period might be best. Before this time the French were well in advance of their opponents in organisation, as is reflected by the results of the battles fought. From 1809 things weren’t so ‘easy’ for them, with the Archduke Charles scoring the first ever defeat of Napoleon at Aspern-Essling in 1809. After 1812, they were scaping the bottom of the barrel.

The reason I thought varying battery size would be good (if it is even possible) is to give a more realistic army composition. The Russians generally had more guns than their opponents in battles, their heavy artillery compensated for the inferior firepower of their infantry. In the game people are often restricted to 1 or 2 batteries per army. No opportunity there for the Russians to have one of their main advantages on the battlefield. If you allowed the Russians more batteries than the rest, they would have less slots for infantry & cavalry, another area where they were rarely outnumbered.
The opposite applies for the British. They generally had fewer guns & often used them in half batteries (of 3 guns). So giving them smaller batteries (but generally better served) gives the flexibility to use the guns more tactically. Indeed they may be forced to as they don’t want to get into a slugging match with the more numerous French.

I suppose the varying effectiveness of artillery could be reflected only through stats. But I think the menacing appearance of large Russian batteries would add to the visual appeal of our game.

[[N]Pints of Guinness]

I actually really like your idea Avon. I feel implementing varying unit sizes would further the historical flavour of each faction. As you say, the Russians were rarely outgunned and it hard to represent their historical advantage as the game is now.

In my opinion I've always seen unit caps (i.e. two artillery max) as an ad-hoc way of fixing a broken system. Obviously the unit stats with the current beta aren't fully in line with the final vision but, the fact that artillery can be so spammable is a problem. I think we all agree that the grand aim should be that the success of an army depends upon combined arms but I also think that if someone wants to bring more than 2 artillery they should be able to but they just have to deal with the consequences.

With Avon's proposed system I think it would go a long way to encouraging the use of combined arms and emphasizing the historical strengths and weaknesses of each faction. Of course we are playing a game and balance is important so it's definitely a system that needs to be implemented carefully.

Also, I was wondering what you guys thought about reintroducing the square formation into the mod. With the latest patch squares can no longer be formed if a unit is engaged in melee. I think reintroducing them would offer a little more strategy i.e. using cavalry to force squares making prime targets for artillery, using squares to protect flank, using combined arms to break a line ect. As much as I love NTW2 and the latest beta I think its kind of a shame not to use a feature already within the game except of course, those Ikea stakes...

[[N]Fullin]

Interesting...
Well that way will make different factions , different. Not a bad idea. But I think that it will be difficult to convince the Lordz at this close final stages of such a radical move.
Thou talking to BDC last night , he told me that stats will be easy to patch in the future without having to release a brand new game. So a patch or a Lordz New DLC , or a mod of the mod mayt be created.

In terms of squares Pints, now you can´t form them while in melee but you can form them 1 second b4 melee so is basically the same, as your charging cav is not gonna be able to stop and back away and you charging infantry will crash against a sudden square holding your granadiers and shooting in the other 3 directions.


Generald de Brigade Fullin

[[N]Von Clausewitz]

After talking to BDC yesterday it seems he is back to the drawing board as far as the mod goes.

VC

[[N]Pints of Guinness]

Yeah you are right Fullin the speed with which they can form square is silly. I wish there was a hot key or something to order several companies to form a square quickly. Then it would make sense in terms of the games scale and also take more time. Ah well....

I was thinking though that for the next patch it would be lovely to see some minor factions unlocked. Some of them have rather full rosters ,even more than the Portoguese in some cases, particularly Saxony, Hessen, Italy, and even Ireland (Legion Irlandaise anyone ?).

[[N]Tactacus]

I do believe marshall beale unlocked these in his mod maybe bdc could ask how"if he doesnt all ready know"

[[N]Von Clausewitz]

Guys after talking to BDC it seems that te mod will not have all the units of vanilla but a portion of them with new units made By the lordz for the mod. The mod is based on the armies of 1806. All units out of this era will be removed. Sone new ones will be introduced. Initially the mod will have only the 5 big powers, later the rest will be introduced.

VC