cav vs square

[[N]Bloody Bill]

I posted this on the lordz as well just wanted my brother opinion.

I know that alot of people get very upset about the last second square when used against them but love it when they need to use it. I have been doing alot of research on cav vs square combat from multiple sources. I have noticed an interesting trend with combat reports as well as historians views. The main thing all have had in common are:
1. 99 times out of 100 the square will win even against excellent cav.
2. cav vs square was a morale battle and not a blood bath.
3. most squares that break are isolated (morale) and or militia units.

My question for the game is, is there a way to simulate cav vs square as more of a morale combat so if your cav is caught by the last minute square it suffer low losses and can bounce from the square easily instead of bouncing after alot of losses are suffered. Many reports I have read show examples of squares fire at 60 paces causing under 10 losses to the cav but causing them to retire. I think squares kill cav way to easily to be historically accurate. Most reports talk about how terrifying it was for the infantry to see all the cav advancing on them and defensive volleys were more of a morale killer then a true killer.


This reference is from :http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_4.htm#infantrycombatsquares4

Squares in combat (part 1).
The cavalry-vs-square it was morale thing only.

French cuirassiers attack Nassauers at Waterloo. When cavalry had chosen its objective and was ready to move, it set out at a walk, officers in front, their sabers unseathed. If, at this moment, the infantrymen in the square started to fidget a bit too much, the cavalry officers could risk acceleration the pace to a trot. Should the musket volley be fired badly - too soon or too high - the cavalry could pass to a gallop, and then the infantrymen, in all probability, would lose their nerve, break their ranks and flee. The result would be massacre.

For the squares, the first attacks were usually the ones that came closest to causing panic. "The first time a body of cuirassiers approached the square into which I had ridden, the men - all young soldiers - seemed to be very alarmed. They fired high and with little effect, and in one of the angles there was just as much hesitation as made me feel exceedingly uncomfortable" - wrote an officer of British Royal Engineers at Waterloo.

If the square was broken very many infantrymen were killed and wounded, many lost fingers and hands as they sought to protect themselves from sabers by holding their muskets over their heads. Others threw themselves down. Horses were unwilling to step upon prone body. The excited cavalry usually passed over their heads, they quickly rose to their feet and either run to the rear or fired at attackers' backs. This is what the Russian infantry did at Eylau, the British at Waterloo, and the Prussians at Strigau. Kincaid writes: "[at Waterloo] hundreds of the [alles] infantry threw themselves down and pretended to be dead, while the cavalry galloped over them, and then got up and ran away... I never saw such a scene in all my life.".

However, the infantry square was THE best formation against cavalry. The square presented rows of bayonets ahead of them and no horseman armed with saber would have been able to strike at them without exposing himself and his horse to the sharp points of bayonets. Horses were unwilling to impale themselves on bayonets.
Prussian colonel Muffling mentions that in 1814 three newly raised Russian battalions were attacked by French cuirassiers. The Russians delivered volley at 60 paces killing not a single man or horse. The cuirassiers however turned back and retired !
A British officer writes: "[At Waterloo] No actual dash was made upon us [our square]. Now and then an individual more daring than the rest would ride up to the bayonets, wave his sword about and bully; but the mass held aloof, pulling up within 5 or 6 yards ..." (- Mark Adkin)

[oOIYvYIOo]

Well mate,i think in real life the cavalry battallions wend engaging a square would suffer losses if they try to maintain the meele atack on a square ,specially due the second lines that were able to shoot and the first line meeling.

If the squares dont do the work that they actual do ingame,and in many cases cavalry can actually to continue is charge pass by the squares with few losses,i had a similar episod today.
Because if you change the square defensible hability,you will see mass armys of cavalry batallions and if now we dont like to have mass infantry armys engaging on meele i think we would dislike if now cavalry would have absolute power versus a infantry.

In this mod,and on real life,cavalry had to be used very well ,and i mean very very well .

[[N]Bloody Bill]

I see your point buddy, I am just try to figure out a way for better balance with the squares. I think last second squares are to effective so if they just caused cav to retreat instead of killing the cav it would be more correct.

[[N]Sloop]

Good point to consider Bill and I am sure there will be continuous improvements in future patches.

I have recently sharpened my cavalry tactics and I am bringing more regiments these days as I find them desirable now that I am able to use them more effectively. daMotta is correct in that they take a high degree of skill. Most officers do not understand the subtleties of certain tactics that I am now just familiarizing myself with. It is always exciting to learn improvements.

[[N]Bloody Bill]

Yes I agree cav is a powerful arm and when used correctly is devastating. I love the mod and the skill it takes to command the army. I am just learning and have noted some things from my miniature wargame days that are alot different. I think the only real solution with the squares is to be able to slow down the unit forming the square. At the same time it is a game and learning from trial and error on how to deal with issues on th battlefield should be the main goal and changing the game later should be the next goal.

[[N]DunkFunk]

Cavalry should never be used alone they are the babies of the army they cant do anything by themselves ( except charge guns) a smart cavalry commander will use his infantry at the same time and usually should be supported by a general for morale boost.

NEVER right click an infantry unit and then HOPE it doesnt form square hopes are for little girls and aspirants instead tell them to run or walk almost right up to the unit if it forms square you will take a few casualties but nothing major, while doing this you should be moving infantry up at all times, if the opponent has no cavalry to counter this the game is literally over all he can do is square and hope and try and run.

[[N]Sloop]

I was going to go into more detail on tactics however Mr. Fouche might think it a bit to enlightling for the public at large.

[[N]Von Clausewitz]

To answer your question bloody bill,

We cannot really reduce the damage from a square. The damage is mainly caused by horses rearing up throwing their men off their backs if ordered to charge a square (CA has watched braveheart one too many times) which we cannot mod. It is one of CA's neverending theatricals that add nothing to the game but annoying veteran players.

Cav kills from being shot at close range from a square are not that impressive, 5-8 maybe killed until the unit retreats out of harms way. Still a bit too much for historical accuracy but necessary for gameplay purposes as there are no moral values that we can use to make cavalry rout just from being shot at at very close range.

VC

[[N]Avon Ulysses]

As VC said, we are stuck with the square that CA gave us. It has been modded as best we could to produce reasonable results.
A tip to reduce casualties from the rearing horses: The wider the frontage, the more that rear-up, so an attack in a narrow column may save you losses from the last second square. Better tho to follow Dunk's advice.